Interview with Professor Sital Kalantry

Sital Kalantry is the Clinical Professor of Law at Cornell Law School where she founded the International Human Rights Clinic and co-founded the Avon Global Center for Women & Justice. She writes in the fields of comparative feminist legal theory, international human rights, and empirical studies of courts. Her works have appeared in the Stanford Journal of International Law, Georgetown Journal of International Affairs, Cornell Journal of Public Policy to name a few. Her opinion pieces have been published in the New York Times, Slate, the New York Daily News and various other newspapers. We want to thank Sital for all the work and efforts she has contributed to INTLAWGRRLS over the past several years through this farewell post. I had the honor of interviewing her. The interview is transcribed below.

Question: You have written expansively about Women’s Human Rights. What drives you to focus on issues such as Acid Attack Violence, Domestic Violence, Sex-Selective Abortion Bans etc.?

Answer: I have always been interested in gender inequality since a very young age. One of the biggest influences for me were some feminist classes that I took as an undergraduate student at Cornell University. Taking those classes helped me see the world through a lens where one could identify inequality and problems on gender issues. I also had an interest in these aspects because I was born in India and travelled India significantly as I was growing up. Visiting my relatives gave me a new culture. It helped me observe the different kinds of inequalities that are present. I witnessed that there is a difference in the inequality that takes place in India and the United States. This gave me further interest to seeing ways where I might be able to help by solving and rectifying some inequalities.

Question: Your book “Women’s Human Rights and Migration” mentions about the practice of sex- selective abortion and how it violates women’s human rights. This contradicts with the concept of exercising reproductive rights as guaranteed as mentioned in Roe v. Wade. What do you think about this contradiction?

Answer: My thesis in the book is that we cannot have universal solution to gender rights or inequality. In some cases, we have to contextualize the law. There are a number of feminist scholars/ activists in the United States who oppose restrictions on abortion in any way, shape or form. They particularly oppose it because there is a restriction or ban on abortion. In India, feminists initially thought that they have to restrict it because it is being used in a way that is discriminatory to women when female fetuses are being aborted proactively and disproportionately in comparison to male fetuses. My thesis is that each country has its own understanding and there is a different law to have different reasons, goals and consequences from gender inequality’s perspective. So, we need to emphasis more one the contextualized view. When I observe the laws related to abortion in the United States, I think about the scope of the problem. Do we actually have the same magnitude of a problem in the United States as it is in India? And the answer is that we don’t. What are the obstacles which make it more difficult for the women in India? Do they have to sign papers or are they asked questions? Looking at the US perspective, there is no benefit to having this law in terms of equality purposes. In the Indian perspective, it works as a balancing check. Even when considering reproductive rights, you are balancing the interests of the women and the state interest. There is a valid reason why abortion does not take place a few days before the due date. So, there is a balancing that people have to do in India and they have to do it in a different way. After twenty years of experience of Pre- Conception and Pre- Natal Diagnostic Techniques Act (PCPNDT), we need to think whether the law is actually working or not. We need to see the positive and negative consequences of this law. There are different factors to consider and that is how I understand it completely.

Question: You have voiced your insights regarding the gender parity in Courts. What difference do you see when considering the Indian and US Courts in terms of gender parity?

Answer: When you look at the numbers of the Indian Supreme Court and the US Supreme Court and take the number of women as the percentage of the total number of judges, it is actually very similar which is less than 5 percent in both countries. The only difference is that in India, there are thirty judges with one woman and at times, they have two women. Currently in the US Supreme Court, it looks like the US Supreme Court has more which is 3 out of 9 i.e. 33 percent. But over time, it is the same. I feel that when we look at the lower courts in the US, the number of female judges has increased over time up to 20-25 percent but in India, the Supreme Court doesn’t seem to be focused on the gender issue. India is based on quotas and equalities but as observed in the Indian Supreme Court and High Court, the judges appoint the other judges and they are not subjected to any observation. I think this is the reason why the progress for gender equality in the Courts is stalled in India.

Question: What are some of the most memorable key findings of your scholarship in terms of women human rights till now? It could be related to domestic violence, sexual violence, acid attacks against women, human trafficking or any other issue that you have researched closely on.

Answer: It is a tough and broad question to summarize but I think that in the context of surrogacy which happens in India and the United States, I realized that it is important to look at the problems in each country. Based on these observations, one can solve these problems on the basis of the dynamics between the surrogacy and the intense trials of each country. Legislation should be adopted on the basis of the social or historical context within the country. In terms of the study, we frame it as a gender violence issue and can think of it as pick-pocketing, murder or battery but this crime is motivated towards women because of their gender. Often in India, it is perpetrated by men so we did data collection on who the perpetrators are. So, we often think of it specifically as a gender crime.

Question: Your scholarship provides a lot of fodder for the policy makers concerning the rights of women and girls. There must be instances where your work has made readers think about practically putting your ideas into use. Would you please share any such instances?

Answer: Students have been really instrumental in the human rights work that is being done and students have put together research that is done under my direction. This research has been cited at the Indian Supreme Court in the Acid Attack case. The Report on Surrogacy Law has been put forth in the Indian Parliament. It has been cited in many newspapers like The New York Times and various others. I think there has been real policy work related to gender issues with advocacy work. I try to combine data, empirical work and scholarship with activism. I think activists on the ground should open up and engage in certain depth of work and scholars are not speaking policy but are typically writing within their own fields. So, my call is to bridge the scholarship and policy gap.

Question: Lastly, how was your experience working as an Editor for the blog?

Answer: I have been editing the blog for seven years. I have enjoyed getting to know so many inspiring women. I particularly enjoyed it when people thanked me for my editorial comments.

Interview with Professor Mallika Kaur

Mallika Kaur is a lawyer and writer who focuses on gender and minority issues in the United States and South Asia including post 9/11 violence, racial discrimination, farmer suicides, and transitional and transformative justice. She is also a lecturer at the University of California, Berkeley, School of Law.  She writes regularly for online and print media as well as academic publications; her work has been published in Foreign Policy, Washington Post, California Law Review among others. We would also like to take this as an opportunity to thank Mallika for all the work and efforts she has contributed to INTLAWGRRLS over the past several years.

Her book titled “Faith, Gender and Activism in the Punjab Conflict: The Wheat Fields Still Whisper” was published by Palgrave Publishers a few months ago. I had the honor of interviewing her with regards to her new book. The interview is transcribed below.

Question: What was your motivation behind writing this book? Why did you specifically choose to cover Punjab’s human rights movement?

Answer: I did not in fact set out with the motivation of writing a book. It was not a part of any academic project or research agenda. It was something that came out of my own journeying. I grew up in Chandigarh, Punjab, having been a part of a community of folks who read their news in English, discussed it perhaps in Punjabi, and largely did not talk to their kids about the armed conflict at all. A seminal year in the conflict history was the Indian Army’s attack on Punjab, epicentered at Darbar Sahib (akin to Temple of David or Mecca) in June 1984. This provoked a visceral reaction from Sikhs, indeed even many non-Sikhs. Yet, within months—I was a toddler still—the justified necessity of the June massacres had taken hold in the non-Sikh psyche of India. Since then, any demands for truth-telling–about that June or the decade of mass violence that followed—have been considered suspect by the majority community and the successive governments of India.

As an adult, my legal and international human rights interest was around courts and commissions and possibility of a regional mechanism for South Asia. I was initially interested in those questions but eventually what I landed on in my work was how powerful stories are in unwrapping things that have been largely silenced for a very long time.

Punjab has been a laboratory of several nation-building projects in India: the Partition in 1947, the not so revolutionary Green Revolution in the 60s-70s, and various attempts at stifling dissent in the 80s and 90s. But these multiple upheavals that contextualize Punjab’s present have seldom been woven and written together, much less by a Sikh woman.

Through this book, I have tried to fight against this idea that the Punjab conflict was just about violence against violence with men combating on both sides. I tried to find stories of people who were non-combatants but chose the dangerous work of human rights defence. The book is trying to re-shift focus from “leaders,” combatants and an obsession with violence to a more nuanced and inclusive approach. Instead of just Indira Gandhi and other perpetrators, the book hopes the limelight comes to rest on women leaders like Paramjit Kaur Khalra, Kuldeep Kaur, Amar Kaur, unnamed women like the police officer who secretly helped inmates in one of Punjab’s many torture centers, and Baljit Kaur, who you see on the cover of the book. Within this marginalized conflict, I am looking at further neglected gender issues. For the men’s stories, I highlight the dangerous tendencies that were conveniently ascribed to all turbaned and bearded Sikh men, and then the general prohibition society imposes on men that makes it quite impossible for them to admit many emotions, much less speak about sexualized torture.

Question: How did you approach and research this topic?

Answer: The story-collection, writing, having the subjects of the story read it, all happened over many years, which was fine because this writing did not have any specific deadline of restriction. One of the benefits of doing a project entirely on your own time and dime! People were generous once they understood where the questions were coming from. They shared their personal archives including videos, legal files and other documents. The book eventually combines legal cases, scholarly analysis, community memory and personal narrative. The hybrid approach is necessary to tease the nuances lost in a more straightforward memoir, collective biography or academic examination. Further, memoir snapshots provide the reader the needed history of the author narrating the history of the conflict: exposing my vantage point and influences directly.

The book is all and not at all about Punjab. When generations of violence may have made silence more expedient than excavation, how might we learn about conflicts’ complexities of the past and their manipulated shadows in the present? Most linear, neat, cited and chronological tellings of conflicts overlook essential dynamics such as gender and trauma.

Each chapter centers on a key case from the year (or years) of its focus, starting in descending order from 1995, the supposed end of the conflict. Legal case details are available to varying extents, which is instructive: till the mid-90s, legal remedies were de facto suspended in Punjab. Case descriptions thus also draw from non-legal sources. Each case necessarily invokes additional cases. And then advocating for the need to embrace complexity and reject binary understandings, each chapter also contains an interwoven section that quickly traverses the earlier history of Punjab, starting in ascending order from 1839, the transition from Sikh rule to British colonial rule. The two timelines, descending from 1995 and ascending from 1839, converge in the final chapter, on the pivotal year, 1984.

Question: What kind of audience did you have in mind while writing the book?

Answer: The audience of this book is pretty large and varied. It includes scholars, lawyers, policy makers, activists, students, and general readers. By presenting convergences between different forms of violence–current and historical, interpersonal and mass social violence—I believe this book has already engaged a variety of readers. I have received very different reactions and reflections from people of various walks of life over the last months. Women who read between the lines when the women in the book remained silent about certain things. Men who have expressed they never thought of some basic gendered dynamics in how even the more popular stories from the Punjab conflict are spoken about.

Also, I strongly felt that since the violence was rendered so common in Punjab, I had to figure out a way of telling the story in a way that is not limited to lawyers or one academic discipline. That it could be understood by anybody who cares about human rights defenders who do the work of helping us retain our belief in humanity during the worst of atrocities! And it’s meant for those unnamed activists and defenders who may be feeling alone in the world. Despite the world today feeling ever-growing in its apathy and ever-shrinking in its attention span towards even the worst of crimes, you are not alone. Different points and places in history have felt the same and still there are people, like the protagonists of this book,  who have made choices against the tide. They felt they really got something out of it, out of this unsalaried and uncelebrated work. They regularly gained inspiration from the folks they worked with and defended. They felt a sense of collective as they became part of history. When you consider the tenacity of centennial litigants like Chaman Lal, it’s hard not to be moved!

Question: What was your approach while selecting the three human rights defenders for the book?

Answer: These three were in fact my windows on many other human rights defenders, some I named earlier, who were always at much more risk and suffered much more. The life stories of the three people you see on the cover of the book, Baljit Kaur, Justice Ajit Singh Bains and Inderjit Singh Jaijee, became trusted vehicles for traveling through Punjab’s recent history. Each of them is credited with saving countless lives.

Speaking of the approach while selecting these three, I’m reminded of a video I watched, which Baljit Kaur took in the late 80s. A Sikh man, a former Army officer is narrating how he was himself picked up, tortured and almost killed. He was speaking in perfect English so this was somebody with enough higher education. He had been treated this way as he had spoken against a young boy being killed. He mentioned that these folks fighting for justice, Baljit Kaur and her colleagues, were in fact the ones preserving the nation’s unity and integrity. Contrary to being seditious or dangerous as the politicians would have folks believe, it was human rights defenders who were providing ordinary people some hope that the legal and justice system could be the answer rather than further violence.

Unfortunately, people fighting for justice often fight very lonely battles. These protagonists had one another. And they had faith in a higher power that kept them going. And they had a lot of pride in Sikh history that they had heard of or witnessed when younger, through anti-British struggles, for example. Still, it was not like they were joined by a large number of other folks living in Chandigarh, Punjab who were enjoying the same relative privilege of upper class these three protagonists had during the 80s and 90s. So it was very fascinating to hear their stories as to how they surrounded police stations, how they compiled reports, how they visited Amnesty International and learnt how to make video footage to appropriately document what was happening at a time international human rights groups were not allowed in Punjab by the Indian government.

Question: How was your experience while interviewing people on this difficult past?

Answer: What I find fascinating especially about my three protagonists is that they are buoyant spirits, so young-at-heart in their 80s, 90s, even though they have seen such horrific things in their lifetimes. These protagonists have made more change than most of us will be able to make in our lifetime. I found this very uplifting despite the subject matter being very difficult.

Since I allowed myself a hybrid approach, and use memoir in the book as well, I put myself very explicitly into the discussions around the legal cases and this too helped me make sense of people’s trauma experiences. Some of the irrational reactions of these people started making more sense because they had gone through very unnatural set of circumstances. The whole Sikh community had been demonized for several decades. And now in India of 2020, the issues of creating an ‘enemy within,’ and what that does to social fabric, is again playing out. Where for example students, including pregnant women, who are protesting new discriminatory laws are picked up and booked indefinitely under draconian laws, themselves iterations of laws previously used in Punjab and then finally repealed on the books. How can we say the unlearnt lessons of past conflicts are not relevant to India today? I am not didactic about the parallels in the book. There is space for the reader to draw lessons for themselves.

Question: What do you think of the post-conflict scenario of Punjab in terms of violence against women and gender-based violence?

Answer: So, the first thing is that I don’t describe Punjab as post-conflict anywhere in the book because there has been no catharsis, no reconciliation, no period of transition, or justice, towards sustainable and inclusive peace. The estimates of those killed vary from police estimates of 25,000 to civil society estimates of 250,000. Even this variance speaks volumes about how the conflict has lived on; there is no closure, no semblance of transparency. Nobody was able to document the dead. Those who attempted to document it, like Jaswant Singh Khalra, whose amazing story I detail in Chapter 2, were killed. We went from this period of heightened killing and mayhem to an abrupt and strident “normalcy” in Punjab.

Coming to your question about gender and violence against women, I think the situation for women remains really bad through these subsequent decades, if not worse. Of course, across India we are dealing with shameful realities like marital rape being still legal. Dowry, being a ubiquitous feature of almost all weddings, despite being illegal. Ideas of honor and purity instead of autonomy and rights being tied to women’s bodies. And then some women’s bodies being deemed as not worthy of honor even: the Dalits of India disenfranchised by caste, or the women in conflict zones, who were blatantly immediately excluded from the changes that were proposed after the much publicized and horrific Delhi rape of 2012. Women who suffered in Punjab in the 80s and 90s at the hand of State forces have seen no reparations, not even in the form of recognition, much less apologies or restitution.

Question: What is next on your research agenda? Would you like to interview more female reformists of Punjab or write about some other aspect of Punjab region or the conflict?

Answer: I remain interested broadly in how we can make connections between different forms of violence that our communities negotiate – current and historical, in the U.S. and in home countries, interpersonal and mass social violence. I have also been writing and teaching on how lawyers specifically manage trauma, their clients’ and their own. Though most importantly right now, through COVID, I am focusing on the work that I have been doing since 2002, advocacy and crisis response for victims of gender-based violence. Working on gender-based violence as a practicing lawyer in the U.S., I am also really fascinated by comparatives. Right now in the U.S. there are a lot of discussions about alternatives to how domestic violence/ intimate partner violence response has been closely tied to increased policing, especially since the 70s. This is a complicated discussion here. Then add other contexts where feminists are fighting for the police to take domestic violence seriously. Or, even more complicated, cases in India where domestic violence laws are not protecting those they were meant to but are regularly manipulated by the upper-class litigants looking for an end-run. This is a part of my broader interest and possible future writing. And I dream of the time and headspace to write fiction someday! But really, I am presently quite consumed with working on the increased challenges faced by domestic violence survivors where I currently live. This too is a lesson from the protagonists of the book: make a difference where you can, don’t overlook the obvious local needs.